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Please Understand Me — 13 Comments

  1. The guardian personality being dominant in society makes sense. You would think that it would be what holds everything together being predisposed to preserving what is. Although there in lies the problem. That predisposition is what makes disinformation and skewing of information most powerful. When the majority is lead to believe that what is has always been and what was is not true. It’s what makes progressive “nudging” so powerful. Reality and the past only exist for an individual during their own experience. History and theory can be taught but it’s still in the abstract and there needs be a conscious effort to apply it. Effort is what separates the guardian from the rational.
    I think your giving our friend Ted too much credit. He’s a race baiting troll. It doesn’t matter how many wild flowers are in the field. When a Bull drops a chip in the middle of it it’s still BS.

    • You are probably right about Ted. Espcially after his latest post, to which your reply was perfect. 🙂

      I don’t think I could agree with your suggestion that effort is what separates Guardians from Rationals. I think the Guardians authoritarian focus on rules and maintaining an orderly society is the greater distinction. Actually, they are opposites; Guardians are concrete cooperators and Rationals are abstract utilitarians. ◄Dave►

      • RE Ted: I just call it like I see it.
        I think you may have missed part of my point regarding Guardians. The desire to maintain an orderly society wouldn’t be such a bad thing if they thought about it and realized that for over two hundred years the United States has been the most orderly and I would even argue fair society ever created. Yes it needed some tweaking over time in the area of civil rights, but even before that it was still an “orderly” society and baring the oppression of certain groups in the past has still offered a better “lifestyle” to all than any other society in the world. Even for the oppressed groups. What most won’t do is realize this and take into account that the necessary changes have been made. We reached the tipping point about thirty years ago where the quest for “fairness to all” has been as assured as much as any government can go. It’s now leading to oppression of all.

        • In nominal terms, Guardians would tend to be the conservatives, Idealists and Artisans the Progressives, and Rationals the independents or libertarians. However, as you suggest, those ignorant, or imbued with a distorted view, of history, really only have their own experiences and recent past as a guide.

          With only minor interludes, Progressivism has been on the ascendancy for over a century. Thus, it is only natural for the Left to wish to conserve the status quo, and delete the past; while the Right dreams of recreating the idyllic society, about which they have only read, and never actually experienced.

          Thus, there is room for all temperament types on both sides of the L/R political spectrum. Their utility is more in understanding how an individual mind functions, than as a reliable predictor of political persuasion. ◄Dave►

      • Oh yes. and your point “Guardians are concrete cooperators”. That is where the disinformation comes in. I mean when you think about some of the outrageous things progressives say you have to wonder how any thinking person could believe it. Yet they do.

        • That probably has more to do with blind faith and a dearth of critical thinking skills. Yet, I suppose ‘cooperator’ could be an euphemism for ‘herd mentality,’ so you have a valid point. 😉 ◄Dave►

  2. I put this over in Thoughts Aloud..Still a bit confused on how to navigate. Perhaps need to access it more….

    Larry Andrew:
    May 25, 2013 at 7:37 am
    Dave….interesting that you recall the previous exercise of our RR group regarding the Kiersey test we all took. I had forgotten all about that which is no surprise given the current state of my memory. Anyway, interestingly, I think, my status in his categories has changed, I am sure, because I have considerable disdain for authority compared to where I was in those days. I own more guns, live behind barbed wire, am ensconced in a very isolated area of the mountains of AZ when we not travelling. I even converted some assets to gold per our discussions from the old days.

    I guess that means our old group discussions influenced me more than I had realized until I started considering where I was, intellectually, at that time.

    This current forum should help me solidify my views as I read Thoughts Aloud from my former compatriots in RR. I can then more safely enter the world of political forums dominated by commie pinko liberal elitists who are aghast at many of my views on current events

    • Not to worry, Larry. I published the blog in both places, which I often do. I’ll post this reply on both as well.

      Although one of the premises of Keirsey’s theory is that basic temperament is innate, I too have noticed a change in my own attitude toward authoritarianism over my lifetime. As a young man, I accepted the premise that there were rules in society for a good reason, and that if everyone would just follow the rules, the world would be a better place.

      Needless to say, I am pretty much in the opposite camp now. In fact, the more I study and ponder the anarchist wing of libertarianism, the more I am inclined to agree with them. Government is coercion, and it would be feckless without it. If a sovereign individual has no right to initiate force, how does a group of them labeled ‘society’ acquire such a right?

      Our interaction on the old RR forum was so thorough and intense, that I am sure we all were well cross-pollinated by our deliberations. I am happy to hear of your gold purchases. Just keep in mind that it is insurance, not an investment, and ignore the current price fluctuations, as the central banks try to manipulate the speculative market. It won’t last. ◄Dave►

  3. My recent exploration of how and why I come to believe the things I do and hold the opinions that I do are a relatively new endeavor for me. Mostly brought on by our good friend Dave. I have always thought of myself as a pragmatist. Many have called me “wishy washy” because I from time to time commit the crime of changing my mind and have no loyalty to the conventional wisdom that I have in the past embraced. When talking politics that is known as “flip flopping”. A crime most serious and disqualifying someone from public office. The thing is how can someones position not change in the face of credible evidence to the contrary of that position. (not to be confused with “evolving” on a position for political expedience.) That revelation alone I believe places me much more to the rational side than most. A place I have been my whole life and really didn’t know it. It at least helps explain my life long frustration with a great many people. I have always said that my pet peeve is stupidity. It’s not actually stupidity that I find intolerable. It’s the lack of someones ability or desire to reason.

    • Gee, Chris. Just when I start feeling like I am wasting my time, you fellows come along and suggest that I have had a somewhat salutary effect on at least a few lives. Thanks. 🙂

      A mind that is unwilling to change when confronted with new data, is hopelessly crippled and a waste of protoplasm. Dogmatists need to be told to sit down and shut up. They have nothing of any value to offer, in the quest for knowledge and wisdom.

      I take it you took the test. How did it come out? I am an INTP.

      I suspect that this subject now interests you. I should have mentioned that Keirsey’s book, “Please Understand Me,” is an awesome tool for gaining a better understanding of family, friends, and co-workers. Since the mid ’80s, I have always made it a condition of employment in my businesses, that the test be taken and the results shared with co-workers.

      The book is available on Amazon, where the first three chapters can be read online, or downloaded for free to a Kindle app. I highly recommend reading at least the first two chapters, which contain the meat of Keirsey’s work. It also contains the offline version of the test. Chances are that you will buy it and talk your family into reading it and taking the test for discussion. For that reason, I would probably recommend getting the paper version, for passing around. Enjoy. 🙂 ◄Dave►

      • No I didn’t take the test. I did follow the links you provided in your post and made a few deductions in a short self evaluation. 🙂 Lets just say it has always amused me that some people tell me I’m so very easy to get along with yet others think I’m a complete ass.

        As reading goes my time is very limited. I’m still trying to get thru the 36 page article that Troy posted recently but I will add Please Understand Me next on the list. The test would be interesting.

        • It only takes a couple of minutes to take the test online at the link in my article. Your results are returned to the screen immediately. Once you have it (e.g. mine is INTP), google just the four letters and you will find all manner of sites, with more in-depth descriptions of each of the 16 possible types. You will find it enlightening and, if you answered the questions truthfully (how you actually are, not how you think or wish you ought to be) surprisingly accurate. The first step to understanding others, is to truly understand oneself. ◄Dave►

  4. HUH! It seems I’m a Guardian Inspector. (ISTJ) LOL in reading the description it pretty much tells me what I already knew. I’m a typical hard working American conservative. 🙂 Although I do see myself more acceptable of new ideas than as described I have to admit I’m more comfortable with the tried and proven path.

    Guardians (SJ’s) are the cornerstone of society, for they are the temperament given to serving and preserving our most important social institutions. Guardians have natural talent in managing goods and services–from supervision to maintenance and supply — and they use all their skills to keep things running smoothly in their families, communities, schools, churches, hospitals, and businesses.

    Guardians can have a lot of fun with their friends, but they are quite serious about their duties and responsibilities. Guardians take pride in being dependable and trustworthy; if there’s a job to be done, they can be counted on to put their shoulder to the wheel. Guardians also believe in law and order, and sometimes worry that respect for authority, even a fundamental sense of right and wrong, is being lost. Perhaps this is why Guardians honor customs and traditions so strongly — they are familiar patterns that help bring stability to our modern, fast-paced world.

    Practical and down-to-earth, Guardians believe in following the rules and cooperating with others. They are not very comfortable winging it or blazing new trails; working steadily within the system is the Guardian way, for in the long run loyalty, discipline, and teamwork get the job done right. Guardians are meticulous about schedules and have a sharp eye for proper procedures. They are cautious about change, even though they know that change can be healthy for an institution. Better to go slowly, they say, and look before you leap.

    Guardians make up as much as 40 to 45 percent of the population, and a good thing, because they usually end up doing all the indispensable but thankless jobs everyone else takes for granted.

    Inspectors (ISTJ) are the true guardians of institutions. You are patient with your work, and are super-dependable to get the job done. You like it when your team members know their duties, follow guidelines, and operate within the rules. As an Inspector, you are not comfortable with anything that gets too fancy, and you usually prefer to be plain and down-to-earth in the way you dress. You like to have fun with your friends, and you enjoy socializing, so don’t be surprised if you find yourself being part of a club. As an Inspector you tend to like to keep your personal space neat and comfortable. You tend to prefer and trust things that have stood the test of time, rather than some newly invented gadget.

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