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Dialogue with the GOP Establishment — 11 Comments

  1. “[And what is the difference between always giving in and giving up?]”

    Too bad that was an afterthought, Alan; it is profound!

    My advice would be to give up… on the Republican wing of the Big Government Party, and start working on starting a new one. It sounds like you are in an ideal location to test a theory of mine, since there are so many conservative Democrats around there. If you think about it, a conservative Democrat is really a centrist or moderate. Chances are he is a fiscal conservative; but not a culture warrior. The very fact that he keeps voting Democrat implies that he fears the agenda of the religious Right more than he fears the socialist Left. Chances are he is as likely to ever vote Republican as you or I are to ever vote Democrat.

    My theory is that if we started a Rogue Party of constitutional centrists, we could attract more moderate Democrats than we would lose social conservatives, and still end up the larger of the three factions, which could win elections by a plurality. You might consider:

    A Rogue Party Proposal

    …for a discussion of the numbers behind my theory.

    The idea of educating the public on what our Republic was meant to be is right on, and the only thing that could ever save it in the end. I applaud you for your efforts. My condolences on the loss of your job. I hope that gets rectified soon; but we will be happy to see more of you in the interim. 😉 ◄Dave►

    • Your Rogue Party proposal has some points of definite interest ◄Dave►. I think I shall print it out so I can study it in more detail and formulate a considered reply. As my local party chief mentioned however, the hoops to jump through to start a new party are myriad.
      A couple of points that immediately occurred to me are 1) your list of potential recruits to such a party is so sweeping that it would be more likely to splinter than hold together, and 2) the triad of potential, well-known candidates you mention are commonly despised by everyone left of John McCain, and that group, generally speaking, are proponents of more bureaucratic/Federal tyranny than less. One of the dirty little secrets of this regime in power is that liberals/”progressives” have no problem with tyranny whatsoever when they and theirs are the tyrants. As I always say to them, “It is a lesson of history that totalitarians eat their own too. That, “progressive” sheep, is you!”
      Thanks for the condolences, but I knew it was basically a summertime job the whole time. I was surveying and drafting the data, and in the mountains of Colorado, surveying pretty much comes to a halt when the snow starts flying.
      I’ll keep you informed on the Liberty Academy project. I’m finishing my home remodel, one more major project to complete which will take into next year, and then I can get serious about that. One of the things I am always disturbed by is the virtually complete lack of teaching done by elected conservatives. With Public Education now Public Indoctrination, I believe it is vitally important that the brainwashing be countered at every opportunity. It’s one thing that Cruz and Lee could have been much more effective at while trying to stop ObamaCare – they could have beat the drums over and over about their philosophical reasons for opposing it.

  2. Alan I concur with most of what Dave says with possibly one nuance. He has described the “centerist” as fiscal conservative and social liberal. Although I think there are many variations in there it’s probably a fair general description. What can’t be done is to minimize the social conservatives beliefs the way progressives do. As a moderately social conservative (there’s one of those variations) I take offense when told my views on abortion are radical and a “war on women”. You can’t take peoples core beliefs and tell them they don’t matter and expect them to vote for you.

    Something I posted the other day.

    You can be against things without wanting the government to ban them.

    You can have strong opinions without wanting to take away someone’s liberty to do those things.

    It is not against libertarianism to vocalize your opinions or ”shame” bad behavior. What would be anti-libertarian would be advocating or a government ban on those behaviors.

    For someone to say they are against drug usage or promiscuity does not make them a fascist who wants to ban those things. They are not evil for shaming drug users and sluts. They are not anti-liberty for critiquing behavior. In fact, it is liberty which allows them to give their criticisms, as well as for anyone else to simply not care. If you want to ban them from using what you can deem ”hate speech”, ”bullying”, or ”unjustifiable coercion with words” in your mind, you are the one who is against libertarianism. If you believe someone is not a libertarian for sharing their negative opinions, you are the one who does not understand liberty.

    I suggest acknowledgement of the views of social conservatives but educating the proper place for those views. It has long been said that you can’t legislate morality. That includes legislating from the bench by activist judges. Teach the proper place for government. At the very least the place for social considerations should be considered at the lowest seat of government possible so as to effect only those effected. Government starts at the bottom with the individual with diminishing power on the way up. That is where we have lost our way. It’s now top down.

    My point is that we don’t have to minimize social conservatives. There views are as valid as anyones. They also would rather not have to deal with government over these issues and I believe the biggest reason they do is a defensive reaction to the progressive government manipulation to attack their views. If you step back and take an honest look you will see that without the push back of social conservatives we would most likely be in a bigger societal pickle than we are. Twerking would be an Olympic event and that would be mild by comparison.

    • √ I particularly like “Government starts at the bottom with the individual with diminishing power on the way up. That is where we have lost our way. It’s now top down.”

      The problem with the teaching you advocate is, where is this teaching to take place? It certainly has to be outside of the schools because there is no place there for conservatives of any stripe, fiscal, social, military, environmental and etc. The efforts of your son’s teacher that you mentioned elsewhere awhile back denigrating anything to do with Republicans is part of that program, and she/he is far more likely to be in the dominant majority of teachers than not. This is the problem that has led me to the idea of a Liberty Academy.

      I try to stay away from the culture trends of the day, considering most of it low-brow mind mush and soft porn, but since you reference it, perhaps you could briefly tell me what twerking is.

      • What is Twerking? I thought everybody knew by now. 🙂 It’s the style of dancing that Miley Cyrus did at the music awards. It mimics sexual acts.

        I don’t know if the type of teaching I describe is something that needs to be taught like in a classroom setting but is teachable thru example. Too often we take an academic view of everything when simple demonstration is all that’s needed. I try to hold myself out as example. I’m most likely the most traditional conservative here. Not a rabid social conservative but I don’t disagree with too many of their views. Where I disagree is how they approach those views. I find I can foster quite a bit of agreement on principals with even the most libertarian here on social issues.

        The easiest way to describe my views is with an example. I am very much against drug use. I can tell a guy standing next to me all I want to not use drugs. He can choose to not listen to me and if he wants to rot his brain and liver I did the best I could. There is one problem with that though. Sooner or later he’s going to throw up on my shoes. For the sake of my hush puppies there has to be a line somewhere or everybody walks around with puky shoes.

        • Well, as I said, low-brow soft porn (or maybe hard core) mind-mush.
          The problem I see is that teaching requires an open mind to have any effect, and in our world of pushy, insistent, brow-beating, our-way-or-no-way “progress”, open minds are in woefully short supply, and most especially among those who swell to lung-bursting pride with the conceit that being a leftist moonbeam is a sign of open-mindedness.

        • Hi Alan…and all,
          Most of my writing time has gone to NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month) this month, so haven’t been paying much attention to politics (and, I must say, it has been a refreshing break). It’s time to switch gears again (and, no, I didn’t get 50,000 words written–unless I can knock out another 22,000+ before midnight tonight), so I’ll be back here from time-to-time.

          Alan, I think a Liberty Academy sounds great, but I agree with Chris on steering away from a traditional academia, classroom type setting, as that typically suggests lecturing, and most people (especially adults) not only don’t want someone lecturing to them about where they’ve gone wrong (about anything), but actively resent it. I used to toy with the idea of starting a type of contemporary salon, a place where people who were interested could discuss the history of this country and explore ideas about its’ future (much like Tspeak, only in person).

          Do you remember when H & I had the bar? I got into a lot of political discussions the first couple of years there (maybe there was something entertaining about a libertarian bartender), and while I doubt anyone on the other side of the bar got much out of those discussions, I learned a few things. For one, I realized people were more likely to agree with me if I never mentioned a political party, especially libertarian, regardless of the issue under discussion. That’s probably the main reason I came to believe that most people are ‘naturally’ live-and-let-live libertarians, they just don’t know it. But once a political party was mentioned, people automatically took their fighting positions, either defending or attacking, at which point any hope of a reasoned and reasonable conversation was over. What I finally came to understand is that politics really is much like religion in that it embodies a person’s value system, and any questioning, let alone challenging, of that value system can be (and frequently is) seen as questioning/challenging the validity of the person. I think that’s why it usually seems to take some kind of ‘crisis of faith’–whether religious or political faith–to get people to re-examine their values and beliefs. (And, Obama may be providing that crisis for many people, right now.)

          Another thing I learned is that the problem is not that so many people’s minds are closed, but that they’re practically empty. I used to joke that I had to educate people first in order to argue with them. (No, I never said that to anyone’s face, except a certain former mayor.) Trying to discuss concepts like ‘natural rights’, private property, federalism, etc. with someone who doesn’t realize that the word ‘state’ not only refers to California but is also a general term for government (so when I used the word ‘statist’ she responded with, “What’s wrong with being proud of your state? Most states are a helluva lot better than Washington.” Remember, I was on the sober side of the bar.) is like trying to discuss areodynamics with someone who’s never heard of gravity.

          And, it’s not just that these minds are mostly empty, but that we’re well into our third generation of people educated in a system that also convinced them that what little is there is brilliant. I saw a vivid example of this when I was still working as a sub about twenty years ago: I was in for a math teacher, and at the time most of the school’s computers were located in his room. With computers still a novelty in school, one of the incentives given to students was the opportunity to write and print out an “A” graded paper on one of the computers (students liked the variety of fonts). One of the students who came in to use a computer was an eleventh-grader who had written a paper about Thomas Edison. When I saw the subject of his paper I told him that I, too, had written a paper about Edison when I was in the 6th grade, and asked if I could read it. He very proudly said, “Sure,” and handed me the paper. I was appalled; it was awful. There were not only grammatical and spelling errors in nearly every sentence, but the organization and prose were childish, something more typical of an average third or fourth grade student, not a high school student. When school ended that day, I went to the teacher who had given this kid the A, pointing out that that paper would never have been considered A work when we were in high school, at best it might have been C, and for many teachers any paper with that many errors would have been an automatic F. Her defense was that they grade on a curve and that was one of the best papers she got (I still shudder to think about the others). The problem, as I told her, isn’t just grade inflation, but brain inflation; by giving the highest possible grade to such shoddy work she was also giving this student a false, or inflated, notion of his own intellect. That grade was, in essence, telling him that his mind was as good as it gets or needs to be. Not only was letting him believe he had accomplished quality work a disservice to him, but multiply this kid by several million ‘educated’ in a similar fashion, and the magnitude of the problem we face in trying to reach these malfunctioning minds gets…really depressing.

          Sorry. I’ve been at this since 1983. And, while I’m thrilled to see the growing main stream acceptance of libertarian ideas, I’m not sure it can happen fast enough now to save the country. One of the other problems we face is that both major parties are completely beholden to the banking and finance cartels–I truly believe they really don’t care what Republicans and Democrats fight about as long as they’re fighting each other and ignoring what’s happening to our money, and the massive transfer of wealth that’s been occuring, especially the last 100 years.

          A couple of quotes I like seem to fit here, so I’ll end with them:

          “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge – even to ourselves – that we’ve been so credulous.” – Carl Sagan

          “Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity.” – Marshall McLuhan

        • Oh my Carol. Talking politics in a bar? Your of much stronger constitution than I. In a place where a guy can sit and complain about what a stupid b***h his ex wife was while crying because he doesn’t understand why she left? I’m not saying it was wrong or anything. I’m just imagining myself in that situation and it doesn’t end well. 🙂

  3. HI Carol, long time no speak. I’ve been seriously occupied on a project for awhile now, trying to catch up on backlogged stuff. In very general terms you’re probably right about a classroom academic setting, but I don’t think it applies when the attendance is completely voluntary. If someone shows up to an advertised seminar or series of lessons I would assume that they are doing so with the expectation that some lecturing would be involved.
    I haven’t had the time to get serious about it, but the most of the mention of political parties would be a plague on both their houses stuff. I wrote down a potential advertisement and it would set both “progressives” and the GOP establishment to steaming.
    I’m kind of like ◄Dave► in that I’m perhaps a small “l” libertarian but not a card-carrying member. Just this past week I got mail asking me to join; I sent it back with a note saying why I could never be a Libertarian. 1) I think their open-borders policy is as simple minded and childish as anything that comes from “progressives”, and 2) in the mailing they said that “peace” was one of their main goals. I commented that it sounded highly flower-childish, like, peace at any price. Since liberty is also one of their main goals, I wondered how they supposed that liberty was possible without often (read, continuously) fighting for it.

    I completely agree with the empty mind realization. As I’ve said for years, the LiberalCode open-mind features the wide prairie wind moaning fitfully on through and nothing else. To them, and open mind is only open in the sense of being roomy. Outside of the Great Brainwashing, there’s nothing else in there. You already know the disdain I have for the Public Indoctrination System. It has little for goals beyond programming the nation’s youth to mindlessly vote for the (D) candidate their whole lives. In my high school years I had ten or a dozen teachers who I can look back at and realize that they were head and shoulders above about 99% of the cretins who hold those jobs now. Money into that system is thrown away. Jamming it down a rathole would be less nonsensical.

    I’m not going to get into any detailed discussion of a Liberty Academy here, as it’s too public. But my basic thought is a series of 10 to 14 lessons, 1 1/2 to 2 hours, with probably only the first one being “live” so to speak, with the rest being taped and sold in that form. I’d probably do about half myself and try to get guest lecturers to contribute on several subjects. I’ve got five people in mind for those, but it is far too early to question them about it. It would probably not happen until summer or later. I believe I have the standing around here that no one else has to attempt such a thing. I’ve thought for quite some time that a significant per cent of the electorate is just aching for someone to speak as I do, and I’ve found nothing to change that view in the past year and a half.

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